Inductions Revisited, Revised ---> SOLVED (?)!

#1

I think we all can agree that aspects of the current induction process have flaws, certain projects and dreams can’t be realised due to waiting lists, lack of inductions etc. despite there being plenty of able, capable, and willing members that could likely give personal inductions based on individual needs.

The way I’m envisaging inductions heading in the near future;

  1. The maker will have to discuss the project with relevant technicians, arrange / chance upon a time when both are present in the space.
  2. The technician will give an explaination and demonstration of the use for that particular purpose; eg. Rebating with a router / table saw usage / welding / pillar drill… etc…
  3. The technician will supervise the usage of the tool to make sure it’s being used safely and properly.
  4. The maker will require; (consistent with shutter access) the referal of 2 technicians to have their fob activated / permitted usage / whatever, to use the tools without supervision from a technician.
  5. Based on experience, the maker can be added to the list of technicians ‘qualified’ so to speak, to demonstrate and oversee safe usage - become a technician of that particular tool, thus contactable by other members with something along the lines of an @tablesawtec, @lathetec, etc.

Thus the burden on a select few will be spread over an ever increasing number of able members, meaning all projects can more or less be started whenever as oppose to being put on hold for months pending inductions.
The inductions would be more more personal and intimate, tied into what the user wants to do with the tool rather than a limited broad induction of the tool.

l think the foundation workshops should stay more or less the same, however I would omit the Mitre saw from the wood foundation and cover this seperately under the above proposed scheme.

Immediate tools that come to mind which I reckon would benefit from this style of induction are as follows;

Pillar Drills
Metal Lathe
Wood Late
Table Saw
Metal Bandsaw
Wood Bandsaw
Router Table
Welder
Hand Routers
Thicknessers
Mortice Drill
Perhaps laser also?

In practice this seems more or less the case already. Though the responsibility of teaching / inducting lies on few members. This sort of system will massively spread load, recuperate enthusiasm and I reckon get everyone trained up far quicker.

We can write up a written breakdown of each tool communally on discourse, factoring all variables, safety checks, adjustable parts, so that those interested in using a particular tool can get farmiliar theoretically with how to set guides / table angles / etc… what butten does what, what nob does what etc, prior to meet with technician for first real world walkthrough, demonstration and usage.

Happy to put in some leg work here with tools I’m experiences with, mostly limited to the woodshop, could help out with writing the welding induction also.

Drafted this over a couple of sittings on a tiny screen so please forgive any repetition / spelling mistakes.

Discuss, critique, etc.
@directors @woodtechs @lasertechs @metaltechs @silkscreentechs
And any other tech tags I may have missed (please append), based largely on you I guess so your thoughts are doubly valid.

Peace.

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CNC Induction Process
#2

I’m not sure how this is different to the current situation - unless you mean that everyone inducted will be automatically be involved in running spontenous inductions.

Either way - if you fancy helping writing up the welding induction that would be great, will message! Cheers

Calum

#3

As I said, more or less the case already, with the addition that experienced inductees given induction training perhaps or just inductor status rather then having access to certain tools requiring the presence on only certain individuals to over see usage.

Most relevant probably to the lathe and a few other tools; I’m just thinking there must be more people capable of teaching, and if can constantly increase that number then there are no more waiting lists, ideally there will always be someone within the space experienced enough to teach a prospective user.

#4

Steps 1-3 are how things already work in the woodwork room in practice. The following steps are trickier in terms of making sure the tools are looked after at all times, but I agree it’s worth having more people who can induct on specific tools.

I want to be a guineapig router table inductee soon and it would be good to have two other inductees there at the same time with various levels of experience, plus someone very familiar with router tables to take notes as we go along. Then we could write it up and get it rolled out for other members. I’ll talk to woodtechs about it and post a date on here soon.

I think we should devote a big chunk of the next members meeting to talking about inductions. And maybe @directors publish a poll beforehand to establish how much of a problem we currently have?

I’m a bit torn about the issue - on one hand the woodwork room is full of tools that hardly anyone is allowed to use, which is annoying, but on the other, if someone has a project they want to do that needs a specific tool, the woodtechs are always happy to show them how. An induction based around a live project as you say is much more meaningful for the inductee and worthwhile for the inductor than an endless queue of people turning up to an induction just for the sake of it and then forgetting everything they learnt by the time they get around to using the tool. (Confession - that’s exactly what I did on the lathe induction, without meaning to.) The main problem I think is that the steps 1-3 are not formalised or widely advertised, so you have to be prepared to show up and be a bit pushy before anything happens. And some people are more comfortable doing that than others.

Maybe on the waiting lists or sign up lists, people should describe the first project they want to do, and then foundation inductions could happen with smaller groups of people who want to do something similar, give more useful tips and info, and the inductees could then go on to meet up and work alongside each other afterwards and support each other with their projects.

And on sign up lists for specific tool inductions, people would need to have a live project that needs the use of that tool, that they can bring with them. That would formalise what already happens and make it accessible to people who aren’t comfortable just turning up at the space on the offchance that a woodtech might be there and available to show them how to do something.

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#5

Without my woodtech hat on - one concern with project-focused inductions is that it wouldn’t cover everything. The router is a classic example: a project where you were finishing edges wouldn’t let you try plunge routing for instance.

From a purely practical pov, group inductions are a more efficient use of tech’s time, and I’d be reluctant to see us move away from that style of doing things. The current system of ad-hoc introduction to tools is far from ideal and as I think you pointed out does not result in inducted members.

As far as trying to increase the number of inductors goes, we’re already doing this. I became a wood tech to help deal with the foundation waiting list - I would challenge the idea that someone who has been inducted is automatically fit to induct others. If people have the time, energy and experience to run inductions, by all means they should make themselves known and offer to be a tech.

The induction waiting lists are really only an issue on the wood shop and metal work areas - the former is hampered by having a large number of inductions on dangerous tools still to write and the latter by too few techs. In areas such as the laser cutter the current system works well and has cleared the waiting list.

Believe me I appreciate the frustration about waiting lists, but I don’t think this is the way to solve it.

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#6

I should add also that as far as the tablesaw and heavy machinery in the woodshop go, we are still awaiting implementation of tool control. We can’t give out loads of keys to the power - it’s a safety issue.

#7

That’s very true. You need a lot of experience in a tool to really understand and communicate the safety issues involved.

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#8

Two thoughts on this:

Inductors

I already put together a proposal that didn’t really get the the last members meeting that didn’t really get a proper airing due to time constraints.

The idea was to decouple the responsibility for leading, maintaining, and safety of an area from the induction responsibilities. To maintain the techs as they are, but create a new category called inductors, similar to what @SarahJ has been piloting.

The tech for any given area working with the directors would grant permission for specially trained inductors who would be only focused on inducting people.

This resolves a number of the real issues, where for example you’ve good Mark and Joe stuck being wood techs because they’re the only one’s allowed to do inductions and thats so critical, and people like myself and Sarah who are capable of doing inductions on the laser cutter or what ever that don’t want to take the full tech position.

Waiting lists

Has anyone stopped and asked why we have waiting lists?

We discussed this a bit the other day, it’s somewhat just the solution we fell into, and now most people who aren’t waiting for an induction say it’s the fairest system, but if you talk to some of the people who’ve been waiting a while they don’t always say that.

The story goes that by having a list that is first come, first serve you ensure people who can’t be on discourse at all hours get a look in. But that assumes that we publish and open these things up at really inconvenient times.

What if we abolished waiting lists as @naxxfish has been doing for the Laser Cutter, and instead just publicised in advance when the date would be, and when the sign up would be. If there are 10 places, you can go to the Eventbrite page and grab a ticket from 20:00 on Tuesday.

That way its advertised in advance, the listing opens automatically and the system is still first come, first served, but gives everyone a chance rather than these perpetual lists where lots of members signed up and haven’t replied to numerous induction dates.

The benefit of this system is that those who are less desperate for an induction are less likely to rush over at the start of ‘ticket sales’ where as those who really want or need an induction will, and by selecting times that are after children’s bed time, but before people usually go to bed, eat dinner or commute we make it as inclusive as we can. We could even just make the signup open 7 days to the second before the induction, as logically if you can make the induction you can probably make the signup time.

To me it just seems like this waiting list is hugely bureaucratic and causing a lot of work for techs and not really helping many members. It sucks for people on the list but it solves a problem, rather than keep passing it on to the next generation of new members.

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#9

This is being worked on still, we’ve got a working system we just need to get the first test unit installed on the laser cutter.

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#10

Agreed, the woodtechs do a great job at what they do in facilitating the usage of certain tools.
But there aren’t enough of them, and each has his / her own life outside of the makerspace, the goal I’m aiming for is that there is always a technician for each tool present in the space so any drop in inexperienced or uninducted members can get adequate pointers and guidance in order to use the space for the reasons they signed up to if for.

You put this beautifully, the above proposed system would be equivalent to having the basic induction - more or less one on one, followed overseen usage of the tools on multiple occasions to build up the level of trust so to speak, of safe and proper usage of the tool as judged by the current technicians.
I totally agree with your point on the router @CriticalTolerance, under the system I’m proposing, you would call upon a woodtech to give you guidance on finishing edges, that’s more or less all that would be covered in the brief introduction as that’s all that’s relevant to the project, demonstrated safe and proper use in finishing edges to 2 relevant technicians means you can use the router for finishing edges on future projects.

But, another project involving a different usage of the tool, would require another demonstration to two techs before being allowed to use the tool for that other function - eg. plunging.

Only when one has demonstrated safe and proper use, knowledge of care for the tool, and has amassed a load of experience across most / all uses of that particular tool would one be qualified to be made a technician for that particular tool, and this also would need the approval of 2 of the current techs.

Again, totally agree with the tool control regarding heavy machinery, and I think the fob access system is perfect, only not fully implemented. Agreed that having loads of bypass keys flying about is a bad idea.

@unknowndomain - this doesn’t tackle the problem of attending an induction and forgetting most by the time you get round to using the tool.
The current waiting systems means whenever an induction is announced, all hungry makers swarm on it like piranhas just to be able to say they’ve done it and are allowed to use the tool.
Hence the multiple occasion demonstration of safe and proper use to at least 2 technicians ‘qualified’ to judge safe use.

#11

I’m sorry but I don’t think this is in any way realistic. The room feels crowded as it is with more than four people in it, and everyone who is a tech also has their own life. This sounds more like a paid technician always available to help with any projects and all tools at agreed hours, which I think would be great in future when we have the money.

Edited to add - I’m thinking about the woodwork room here.

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#12

Wasn’t trying to criticize - it’s a big chunk of work and I know yourself and others have been spending a lot of time and effort on it.

#13

Again, if there are members who can stand up and become techs to increase the overall number then they should please speak up - I would love more woodtechs!

This is unworkable. What stops a user from exceeding their “trained” level. Under your model there’s nothing stopping a naïve user thinking “oh it should be okay, I’ve been part inducted” and causing an accident. How do you make them aware of the risks of exceeding their boundaries? By the time you’ve explained this, you’re basically back to a full induction - and I refer you to my point on the efficiency of group inductions vs single. You either induct someone on a tool or don’t - we can’t have halfway houses.

As far as your point about sufficiently qualified people becoming techs after a certain level of experience, I feel you’re ignoring the soft skills aspect. Does that person want to become an inductor? Do they have the time/energy/ability to teach other people. If not, they shouldn’t be one. If they do, they should step up and discuss helping out as a tech, which is where we are now.

Could I address a key assumption here: have you ever been unable to complete a project because a tech wasn’t available to help/supervise the use of a tool? And if so, did you message the techs and ask for help? I’ve never seen a request outright turned down, and I get every @.woodtechs notification.

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#14

Personally I think waiting lists are a good interim measure as they give the opportunity to prioritise members who have been waiting the longest. I would like to see them eliminated in the long run however. Your proposal should be discussed at a meeting where we have a little more time.

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#15

What stops any uninducted member currently entering the workshop and picking up a router independent of even a halfway induction.
Under your same critique, the current model is unworkable.
There are currently no means of making this feasible, unless we plan on having fob access controls in each cable for each power tool and thus we have to rely on a level of trust, and the terms “don’t be a dick” and “don’t use any tool you feel uncomfortable using - ask for help, especially when there are other people in the shop.”

Quite right you are, and if the answer is no, that’s totally cool, no technician should feel any obligation to help any member at anytime, if theres something they’d rather be doing they have every right to say “no, I can’t help at the moment”, followed by perhaps another day or whatever.

As I’d said earlier, most of this is more or less already the case, and I’ve been shown around the thicknesser, bandsaw and tablesaw to name a few. Each time taking Joe or Mark no more than perhaps 10 -15 minutes of their time, obviously not covering every single aspect of the tools possible safe and proper uses.
I think that the time cost to the technicians will be smaller in the long term as that style of teaching sticks far more so than being within a group getting a tour of the tool - at least for me personally.
And the subsequent usage helps solidify any learning which occurred and give some real experience as oppose to one demonstration cut or whatever.

Personally, often it doesn’t seem that a brief induction with a single demonstration of safe use is sufficient to gain access to heavy and dangerous machinery.
Multiple demonstrations of safe and proper use seems a better method to gain anytime access (another member in the building permitting…)

The mitresaw for example, complex and highly dangerous machine, with many many variables for changing angles, slide etc etc, as well as complex things to note regarding shape of the wood and thus which way up to face it etc. Anything set up incorrectly could be extremely hazardous, and a one time demonstration or setting angles and making a cut isn’t enough to stick, thus for any use of this tool by a remotely inexperienced member should always be overseen by a technician, on multiple occasions, such that the risks of tiny but potentially catastrophic mistakes can be reduced.

As for waiting lists, given that anyone can head down and state their projects and aims and receive more or less an unofficial 1 on 1 induction these can be more or less viewed as redundant, especially if the 1 on 1 inductions were to transition into being the norm.

#16

This is being solved by charging for inductions.

This will be solved by tool control being able to in future require re-induction if you’ve not used a tool for a period of time.

I know :smiley:

The directors have previously expressed concern about having too many techs, this is another reason for inductors to exist.

They are a good solution for the first few months when you are dealing with the backlog and surge in interest, but we could use a system like the proposed maker points to prioritise these inductions to people who put more into the space making it a reward for contributing to the space.

Both of these are true, currently there is nothing, but it is clearly against the rules and if you have an accident or hurt someone the liability lays with that person.

In future tool control will be on all power tools (except battery powered ones).

#17

I think in summary I agree with Ed @CriticalTolerance - if the current induction system doesn’t seem right to you, the best way to change it is to get involved and help shape how it works in your main area of interest. With the best will in the world, asking people who are already doing things to do them differently without offering to help is probably not going to get much traction. :slight_smile:

#18

Reading this thread, I’m gradually coming round to @unknowndomain’ s suggestion for the proposed inductor role. For example, I am not a @woodtechs and never will be; I don’t have that kind of expertise. However, I probably could induct people on the Tormek sharpening system, having been shown by Mark during a handtools session, studied several YouTube videos, read the literature (no I didn’t steal the manual) and practiced with the tool quite a lot. If the idea is to have inductors focus on ONE tool then conduct inductions on that tool only, on a request basis as @Jonty_Bottomley proposes, it seems that might work. Of course it depends on the tool, level of hazard, depth of instruction required etc - the spindle moulder would be a completely different kettle of fish.

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#19

My feeling is that we should do it incrementally responding to new inductor types as needed.

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#20

Agreed. Is there a case for a pilot project with the inductor role for one power tool, and see how it goes?

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