AED - Semi-Automatic External Defibrillator - Let's get one!

#1

I’ve been on a tangent browsing youtube this afternoon which has alerted me to how important a defibrillator can be in saving a life which would otherwise be lost.

I know how much of a pain it can be to get people to find the makerspace when ordering an uber or food, to get emergency services to the space in time on top of everything else going on during a crisis seems risky.

Am I the only one that thinks this is a very good idea, in fact can we make this happen?

The price is around £1,000 for a unit according to amazon.

#2

Theoretically a good idea. The only issue will be certification. I had to be trained to use one at my work and had to periodically update my certificate. There’s legal implications if you use it and the person dies. Silly, as the chances are they’d have died anyway, but you just know there’ll be some over zealous lawyer somewhere who’d argue you made things worse.

#3

Yes if we can

#4

I love this idea if we can get external funding for it but don’t think it’s the best use of makerspace funds. Have been trained in the use of them.

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#5

Now it has been mentioned we are going to feel really shit about ourselves if we don’t get one and need one .

I don’t think that we have a choice

#6

But we should also organise first aid courses for members.

#7

This might be relevant:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20641115

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#8

We have electrocution as a risk.

I learned to keep my fingers out when my Hart was young enough to defibrillat itself. But most of our members getting into electronics are a bit older

Yes I did kill myself at least once. .

But fortunately (at least in my opinion ) my hart managed to restart it’s self

My point is that in my experience this is a excellent idea, as I am sure that someone will get a bad bite at some point

#9

Is there one at the station? Or otherwise nearby?

In terms of potential for usefulness, perhaps a one-day first-aid course might be more generally useful - fatal or near-fatal accidents are relatively unlikely with good safety procedures but injuries on a spectrum from minor to serious are something that ought to be prepared for.

#10

Typically AEDs are installed in locations where either:

  1. The risk justifies their cost
  2. There is a desire to have one in spite of low risk
  3. There is a large foot fall

I work at a University where they’ve decided to invest in them for the 2nd reason, young people don’t reprisent a high risk. Train stations and shopping centres often have them for the 3rd reason, and places older generations frequent would be an example of the 1st.

Thing about those criteria above, we don’t have a huge foot fall, and I don’t think we should have one just for the sake of it, so is there a higher risk?

Our members aren’t older or at higher risk of natural cardiac arrest, but there might be some argument around @joeatkin2’s point about working with electrical, however not being a medical professional I don’t know how useful an AED would be for cardiac arrest caused by electrocution, as AEDs don’t shock unless the patient is suffering from VF, and sometimes VT.

The point is that the AED might be useful, and they all provide audible guidance and a metronome for CPR, but I am not sure that an AED should be seen as this shield like item that will save us if someone has an accident, Makerspace as I understand it still forbids high voltage electronics?

I think the nearest AED to Makerspace is at Herne Hill station on Platform 1 in the staff office, however there might also be one at the dentists on Half Moon Lane.

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#11

If we’re keen on this it might be something to pursue with other local traders and the Herne Hill Forum? The costs could be shared and it widens the chance of of having people with the correct training, and for those people to be identifiable in case of an incident.

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#12

I asked my partner who is a Cardiologist about the defibrillator.

In summary and layman’s terms (I initially got bombarded with technical medical terminology haha!)…

CPR is of primary importance. Mechanically pumping the heart through manual compressions on the chest. The defribilator works in conjunction with CPR. When you switch the machine on and discharge it, it will give an audio command to continue CPR compressions.

If someone has heart attack in the space and only a defribilator is used it only gives a tiny percentage (5%) chance of restarting the heart by itself.

Given there is a defribilator nearby at the station and/or dentist, she advised providing CPR training as the most effective way of saving a life.

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#13

Yeah that matches what we were taught in FAW :slight_smile: good to know!

We should probably start by asking members to disclose if they have active first aid training to see how coverage looks now.

We could also run a report for members most frequently in the space and offer those members training who want to be added to the list.

This could be as simple as @directors creating a First Aider permission on the membership system and entering the expiry date of their first aid certificate, that way we always have a list of those with training who are willing to help out.

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#14

I ask in the induction and the courage is not good

#15

If we do go the AED route then you need to factor the cost of annual service. A dead AED is worse then none! And it needs to not be behind 100kg of plywood.

An AED would be useful for Electric shock as Ventricular fibrillation is the most common associated arrhythmia.
The heart being a bunch of low resistance wires wrapped up in meat is particularly sensitive to electric shock and often forms the path of least resistance from your hands to your feet.

Amps of 0.2 or less are more associated with VF. It’s thought that higher currents may cause a protective ‘clamping’* of the heart but higher currents are also more likely to cause tissue damage and if your heart starts to cook then defibrilation is not going to help.

  • this is something stated on a Red Cross course, but i’ve not confirmed this in formal medical literature.

So if we thought electrical shock risk was higher than someone tinkering at home then there could be a case for (1).

Our members aren’t older or at higher risk of natural cardiac arrest
It’s probably safe to assume that we are reasonably representative of the local population. But who knows, we may have an abnormal bunch of people with strong family history of cardiovascular disease cardiomyopathies etc

Overall I think the justification would have to be due to (2). A witnessed cardiac arrest is more likely on your way from Herne Hill station, which would lend itself more towards a community approach. The British heart foundation funds public AEDs for communities but looking at their site, I think we would be considered too urban.

Regardless of AED, I think increasing first aiders is good idea. It’s surprising how many people don’t even know how to manage a nose bleed let alone a cardiac arrest.

Hands only CRP is recommended for untrained public - just watch Vinnie jones.

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#16

Glad you’r heart fought back.

If someone has an electric shock there is a risk of a delayed cardiac arythmia upto a few hours later, so should really be cleared by an ECG.

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#17

I think I just had a cup of tea…

It was a long time ago and I didn’t realise what a close call it was until years later, but my hart was doing jazz drummer for a long time and a bit of the tunnel and light thing as well…

#18

I say we go with whatever this man says

If memory serves me correctly you are a doctor?

#19

I had the great Idea of putting my fingers in a light bulb socket to clean it out when I was 8 years old.

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#20

I seam remember sticking my fingers in a light bulb as well, says more about me than I want to admit to that I didn’t learn my lesson with a 240v bite and had to try the ht line of a TV set …
Why stop at 250v when there’s kv’s available inside the box :grinning: