The great money debate

#1

I assume I’m allowed to refer to money in any way I like, considering that it has no feelings and therefore can’t be offended?

It’s well established/accepted that modern money has no intrinsic value. It’s used as a medium for exchange of value but that’s undermined by there being no effective limit to the supply (i.e. the economy keeps growing). Where does it grow into, considering there’s certainly limited natural resources on earth?

Since the gold standard was abolished, it’s only backed by the government. And who trusts them? Nobody I’ve asked recently

It’s almost certainly the case that those with more of it and/or assets of substantial financial value are more protective of it’s perceived value. And this probably applies to those that produce nothing of real value. Eg. Insurance, financial services, etc, etc.

#2

When the resources run out, the philosophical nature of money will be the least of your concerns.

You don’t have to trust them. They take tax off you, and can do it by force if necessary. That’s all the “trust” they need.

#3

For the record, I don’t actually expect vital resources to run out. But I know I’d survive longer than most if they did. I figure just survive 2 weeks until everyone else has killed and/or eaten each other. The rest would be too weak or stupid to do much.

The inappropriate/irresponsible use of money is one big reason why resources may run out and certainly leads to unsustainable practices such as deforestation, drug prohibition, hunting endangered species, over production of plastics, air pollution, modern farming, meat eating, etc, etc.

Nobody takes taxes off me AFAIK except in VAT on purchases which I choose to make.

Besides which taxes are paid in valueless money so they don’t actually pay for anything and are merely a tool of control, monitoring and maintaining religious faith. i.e. it must be valuable if security vans, guards, vaults, etc protect it and enforcement agents take or threaten to take ‘property to the value of’.

Who decides the value of things? Is a handbag or watch really worth £15k? Is heavily polluted London property really worth £billions?

It’s the second time someone on here has mentioned force being used to extract taxes. Sounds like fear tactics to me. From what I’ve seen and heard, people unconsciously agree to it at some point because they don’t know what they’re doing. Because they’re legally incompetent and effectively illiterate and/or technically insane.

I’ve got several cards to play should anyone ever try that with me. Which I doubt because they don’t seem to want to ‘play’ anymore because I just change the rules of the game. And possibly because they know that I’m no longer under the spell of acts, statutes and byelaws, unless I consent.

#4

As the proverb says, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Natural resources do not necessarily count for anything in regards the size of the economy until they have been exploited. The rate at which we can do so is increasing and so the finite nature of earth’s resources has not capped the size of the global economy to its present size or to any earlier size.

#5

So what actually grows/shrinks when the economy grows/shrinks?

Is it production? GDP? Does the economy grow with drug dealing or street crime? Probably. Certainly insurance and security sectors.

Quantitative easing and fractional reserve banking grow the money supply.

#6

With the greatest respect, what is the point of this question?

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#7

Priceless ; )

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#8

There you go again. You seem quite happy to swap this valueless money for a solar power course. Or presumably SLMS membership. So it does have value

#9

Money is a universally agreed and/or enforced mechanism for abstracting the value of goods and services for interchange.

#10

It’s not my fault if people are stupid enough to give something of value (eg. workshops, membership, etc) in exchange for something of no value (money).

While they do I’ll continue to exploit them. People seem to like being exploited and often behave strangely if you don’t try to exploit them or refuse to be exploited yourself.

Not by me anymore and increasing numbers of others. I assume I’m free to question it’s value? Why does it cause such an extreme reaction? I would argue that it produces a similar reaction to questioning the faith of fanatically religious people.

It’s simply an off-topic discussion prompted by a challenge to me calling money “worthless religious debt tokens”. Anyone would think I’d published a cartoon of someone’s religious deity. Perhaps mon-eye is the deity here?

Unfortunately it’s long been used to damage the planet and exploit vulnerable people including children.

The belief in money causes people to do terrible and insane things. People kill themselves and others because of money. That’s insane. Therefore fueling that belief and refusing ideas to the contrary is insane. Just like the current obsession with cars with air bags and other safety features for the occupants of cars that are killing everyone.

How many people take their own lives from fear of financial ruin? Versus, how many people take their own lives from fear of terrorism?

Whereas some of the best things in life really are free. It’s unfortunate that people often don’t value what is given away because they assume it can’t be valuable because they wouldn’t give it away if it was.

#11

Please do not selectively quote me…

I said:

You may not agree with it, but the power of the government, police, military, court and society will not allow you to push the boundaries far, therefore it is enforced.

…and…

Because you are pedalling your views at every turn when people are just trying to have a normal conversation, it’s tedious, like religious people trying to convert you in the street or at your door step.

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#12

And to call money worthless while attempting to use it to buy a course is completely ridiculous.

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#13

Well okay then.

  1. Money conceptually is useful as a way of agreeing exchangeable value - being intrinsically worthless is a feature, not a bug, because it allows better abstraction of value. This is handy because nobody knows what the correct change for a goat is when bartering for a mars bar.

  2. People do insane things for the value money represents, not the money itself. People would still do insane things if we were bartering (indeed, they did for hundreds of years). This doesn’t negate money as a concept.

  3. Having a mutually agreed abstraction of value allows people to do interesting things rather than spend their time foraging for enough calories to fight off the nightly hoard of leopards. If I agree to spend all day knapping flint because I’m good at it, it lets Urg hunt secure in the knowledge that she can exchange part of her kill for high quality tools rather than have to spend half her time faffing around with rocks, which she’s never got the hang of.

In short, to quote the Simpsons, “money can be exchanged for goods and services”.

Of course, if you don’t like the money, feel free to do without. People from Diogenes the Cynic downwards have agreed that unnecessary property is counter-productive to happiness.

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#14

I’ve started an off topic thread which nobody is forced to engage with. It’s your choice.

Well they haven’t so far with me and I don’t believe they have any real power so good luck to them.

Read “Power vs Force”.

Is it against the rules to call money worthless at every opportunity because most people on here are peddling the lie that money is valuable?

What’s the problem with calling it worthless? Is it offensive in some way?

#15

At last a sensible response.

I agree with most of that but money has changed form in recent times, possibly since the invention of the microchip, certainly since abandoning the gold standard and adoption of electronic money (which is fundamentally different to cash because cash is illegal to counterfeit)

I’m told by industry insiders that “The Big Short” is very close to the truth.

That governments are hostage to banks means we’ve lost control of the medium of exchange. Those at the top of the ponzi scheme have no controls or limits and pay little or no tax. The further down you go, the more you ‘pay’ or ‘work’. I suppose this has always been the way but the sides of the pyramid become increasingly steep and slippery.

Actually I used to hate money because I was scared and disgusted by what it can cause people to do. Now I know what it is, I no longer hate it and can attempt to change things. In fact I find it amusing what people do and say about it and how defensive they get about it.

Money causes at least 8 million tonnes of plastic to enter the sea every year. And soon there’ll be more plastic than fish. Collective insanity?

‘Positive Money’ is an interesting and fairly successful campaign although I find the name oxymoronic.

What should I do? Offer potatoes? So I’m not allowed to give or receive money whilst informing the recipient or giver that it has no value?

I once told a shopkeeper that a pound coin I gave him was fake and he didn’t care. At one point 20% of pound coins withdrawn from banks were fake. They were knowingly passing fake currency. That’s why we now have a new pound coin.

#16

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#17

Offer what you like. But if you expect that the vendor will accept your money, then you don’t really believe it’s worthless. It has value because you and they both believe it does.

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#18

To be fair mate, I think the reason you’re evoking such a reaction is you’re constantly trying to call people stupid, implying you know something we don’t and are coming across as a bit of a prat.

Appreciate this is ‘off topic’ but if you could stop trying to wind people up and be argumentative that’d be great.

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#19

I am guessing you haven’t broken any/enough laws yet for them to consider you enough of a thread to society to over power you, I get that you reject the authority, but you are only able to speak about your successes because you’ve not transgressed far enough to cause a reaction, not that I am advocating you break the law.

No but in the middle of a conversation it is annoying to people.

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#20

Money is intrinsically without value, you are correct. It is only supposed to represent the value of other things, as determined by markets or other mechanisms of assigning prices to goods and services. These are not original observations.

What is the alternative to money? It has existed at least as long as civilization. I do not think that any advanced civilization has yet arisen that did not use money. Like a lot of things, it is the least worst option given alternatives. Not perfect, but also not perfectible.

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