Place is closed because of "nobody with shutter access" is around

#21

When I first joined it was explained to me that shutter access is a privelidge (not a right) that came with responsibilities. One of those responsibilities was that you had to host the space for other people when you opened up.

I can’t help but feel that if people don’t accept the responsibilities, they lose the privelidge. If you repeatedly open the space without hosting then you lose shutter access. If someone repeatedly left the space unlocked all night, I’m guessing they would lose shutter access.

I suspect this will be an unpopular view with some people but these won’t be the people who are paying for a membership they can’t use.

I know that sometimes you don’t know how long you will be at the space, in this case, don’t host, wait till someone else hosts so you don’t have to make a commitment. I too have hosted and then I couldn’t do what I had planned. I still stayed for the four hours I had committed to because that’s what a commitment means.

To the point that it’s fiddly; I think this is a weak argument. It’s no more fiddly than much of the equipment we have.

Alternatively, give everyone shutter access. At the moment, everyone pays the same (barring concessions) but not everyone has equal access. I don’t think that is very fair.

The green tick isn’t very helpful if you don’t live close to the space. By the time you arrive, the space may be closed.

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#22

Historically, booking is not the default. We started to use it because of COVID. If I just drop in and see the space open, I won’t check if the person who opened the space placed a booking. Everyone needs to do this, otherwise it won’t work. At this point only some do this. To make everyone do this, is change the culture of not just showing up to having to book Everytime, everything.

Can we just remind people to book and be okay with good enough?

Reminder - this thread started with talking about a tick, not that there wasn’t a booking. Which there was and people responded to the thread saying it’s open as well. We have days when we’re generally open. Members post when they are in…

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#23

Would there be a way to add the duration of any bookings to the check mark? If the shutter is open and the tick is green, the system checks the calendar for any bookings and posts the earliest and latest time listed (as long as there is continuity between the two times to solve any issues of multiple bookings) if there are no bookings in the calendar then it’s is stated next to the check mark when it is green meaning people without shutter access know to check how long the space is open.

In addition to this, though I know it might not be suitable as people may see it as a privacy issue, could the member who raised the shutter have they discourse user displayed? Gives a direct point of contact for people wanting to come down. This would only need to happen in the event there is no booking for instance.

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#24

There was a space log that got removed and replaced with the tick, the space log got broken, BUT admins have access to WordPress where there is a space log - anytime anyone touches a fob anywhere,it is recorded with the correct action. I already mentioned this multiple times - can we reinstate the space log whether via word press or on discourse! @systems

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#25

That definitely is something to consider too, I felt I was being stalked by member who used to have an access to the log on wordpress and would treat is as their personal look out. Whether that was an intentional or just a lack of boundaries from their side, it felt pretty damn weird. But that’s rare. And if everyone has access, then weird behaviour can happen too, but that’s just an issue of having people to agree to a clear code of conduct.

#26

I find the calendar is really slow (takes about a minute to open) and often doesn’t open properly on my phone in Firefox Mobile.
I’m not saying this is an excuse but wanted to bring it up somewhere… (also the reply box often appears behind the on-screen keyboard, making it impossible to see your messages)

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#27

On 1, that’s probably not going to be of any real benefit to members without SA. The info on booking times is on the calendar and can be seen there.

On 2, “this would only need to happen in the event there is no booking for instance.”. At the moment, the policy is that there should be a booking. This seems like a system which endorses non compliance with the policy.

#28

Whatever the system is, I think we need to agree and stick to it.

At the moment, at open evenings, I and others tell potential new members about the hosting system as I understand it is supposed to work. I feel this is increasingly becoming a lie and we are getting new members to join under false pretences.

At the moment, a more honest statement might be “you pay a monthly fee and you might be able to use the space. It just kinda depends…”

4 Likes
#29

I think on 1. the increase the versatility of the ‘at a glace’ general use of the check mark whist also consolidating the information from multiple space bookings.

On two, whilst I agree this is not a ideal solution, this could work as a stop gap and give people with out shutter access a point of contact. That being said I agree with Petra that there are privacy issues with this but it would encourage bookings to be correctly input to the calendar.

I think making use of the times from the calendar alongside the check mark will encourage better use of the calendar as well as it becomes a more point of contact tool. This paired with a easier way to engage with the calendar would hopefully increase usage.

#30

Not sure how feasible this is, but would it be possible to have a system where SA members can quickly and easily input their expected time in the space upon entry (and this updates the calendar), like through a keypad or a phone app?

It feels like the calendar booking system works really well when people know in advance they will be there, but is less accurate for situations when the space is used more spontaneously, with the latter situation resulting in the discrepancy between the calendar and whether the space is open?

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#31

What was the system before?

It sounds like the policy of having to make a booking hasn’t been effectively implemented and the ‘just show up’ culture persists. Not needing to make a booking is certainly more attractive - for members with SA. Is there a way to make that work for members without SA?

It might be enough if the space was open for 2-3 weekday evenings e.g. every Tues and Thurs and some set times during the weekend. With electronics eve, inductions etc., it shouldn’t be so hard to ensure it is open at those set times. Many Makerspaces are only open one evening a week. If a member without SA wants to request access at a different time, they could ask. Having set times like that for hosting members without SA may also mean that more support is given to them - e.g. techs might be on hand, new members get supervised and shown ropes a bit more, washing up gets done etc. Meanwhile there are members who certainly should have SA who still don’t. e.g. @elena_alexi who was at a booking I hosted. We could certainly reduce the number of members without SA.

Keeping the just show up culture and ditching the policy of making bookings could be made to work. Alternatively if keep the policy, then should implement it and shift the culture (which can be done). At the moment members without SA are in a system that relies on a policy that isn’t really implemented. That’s a problem when one is a member without SA.

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#32

We did talk about making something like this, and I vaguely remember putting my hand up and saying I’d look into it then not getting very far

Maybe time to pick this back up off the pile of unfinished projects…

If we had some sort of raspberry pi, which made a periodic slightly annoying noise if it was powered up but couldn’t find a space booking - then allowed people to enter a booking without getting their phone out, I expect that would resolve the main issues

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#33

I was kicking around a similar idea, riffing on the meeting room system I’ve used at a previous job. Basically bookings were able to be done via Outlook (Discourse) but if there was no booking, you could book in person via a touchscreen.

I then started kicking around the implications of such a system in my head and though there’s numerous corner cases, I think there’s a scenario where you can make this work. I’ll think about it today on my hike and probably come back this evening with an over-engineered effortpost but at least it’ll keep me entertained during 10 miles of Birkshire countryside :slightly_smiling_face:

The key is making it robust and low-friction, though. The current system exists because it doesn’t get in the way. But at the same time, it should encourage the core tenants: booking if you’re going to be there for an extended period, and a continuous chain of custody between SA members whenever open.

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#34

i have a feeling that this is getting blown out of proportions somewhat. the space is open quite often. that includes almost all evenings, quite a lot of afternoons, and many mornings.

maybe someone like @kyle can visualise how much the space is open.

additionally getting shutter access isn’t that hard.

there’s no point making grand sweeping policy changes unless it really makes things better. the improvement needs to be proportional to the effort.

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#35

Ditto, if anyone looks into the calendar, there is a booking for everyday dating months back (except 27th Aug) + many posts by Brian who must have allowed countless non-SA-holders in. We’re doing well.

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#36

To be fair, I can see why it would be super annoying if you live an hour away and you see the green tick to say the space is open but have no way of knowing if it will be open all day or someone’s just popped in for 10 mins

Definitely would prefer to fix it with a gadget of some sort rather than adding new layers of bureaucracy

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#37

People used to make friends and check. It definitely wasn’t perfect due to it becoming a bro-club, but also the space used to be open almost 24/7 due to regulars. I don’t want to go back to it, but would like something that works based on people creating meaningful and respectful connections as well as plan reasonably ahead with certainty of getting in.

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#38

I was thinking about something like this the other day. If there was an easy way to just say how many hours you will be in and it creates a booking maybe it would help? But then if a key holder turns up while you are there and takes over as host they still have to go in and adjust… Maybe its more like a system where key holders tag in (regardless of if they just opened up or not) and say how long they plan to stay and it manages the booking accordingly.

#39

Thanks for this.
I’m one of the people who need one hour to get to the space, and 3D printing is currently one of my main things. The current situation makes it difficult to know when I can come in.

For me, seeing a green tick means nothing, as I don’t know if it will be a red cross by the time I arrive, or whether someone will be in long enough for me to complete my 2 hour print.

I usually wait to see when someone’s booked in an induction. There are also people like Petra who book ages in advance and make it super helpful for me to plan, or Brian, who you know is always in at certain times. Thanks to these people I’m able to use the space and I really appreciate this.

I do find it difficult to visualise what it’s like for someone to just wake up and decide “oh I’ve just come up with this project and I’ll go to the space in 5’ to make it’” but then again I’m a planner and others are spontaneous souls :smiley:

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#40

I usually book maybe a maximum of 1 week before i actually go to the space most of the time it’s next day or 2 days before. I don’t like planning very long terms.

I don’t like the idea of being force to go at the space at a certain time. I already do that for work i don’t want do that in my spare time.

I’m not maybe the best example of organization tbh but personally i do book if there’s no booking when i intend to go in and there is no booking.

Also it looks like a fair amound of bookings if we look at the last 2 months. Definitely an ascending trend in my opinion.

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There’s a lot of people here donating a lot of their time for the space, i’m really grateful we have these people. I don’t feel like enforcing schedules and other things is the way to go tbh.

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