Jig, Table saw and Planner induction help needed

#1

@woodtechs

I’ve been experimenting making small boxes using a mix of the laser cutter and wood shop tool. Its worked ok for 6.5mm Ash and Cherry wood but Sapele is refusing to be laser cut hence the next tool on the list being the table saw; already tried the track saw and its not accurate enough for small pieces 55mm X 125mm.

Over the last few weeks I’ve been testing out a number of tools to cut some 6.5mm Sapele and concluded I need an induction on the table saw and planner. This as all laser cutting options have been explored and ended up in failure for Sapele wood, including my own Glowforge laser cutter, none of the lasers wants to cut the stuff.

I also need to construct a jig to do repeatable same size cuts and a 45 degree cut.

@mbg asked me to post to see if anyone could help supervise me on those 2 tools before he tests me on their use. Group inductions on those tool are being fazed out and its now down to individuals to get familiar with the tools themselves Im told :slight_smile:

#2

So, the only people who can supervise you using the tools are people who can induct you. I could ‘help’ by doing your work for you, which you probably don’t want. You need to get familiar with the tools theoretically for now. Once you understand their purpose, components etc, you can get signed off to use them.

Read the tool pages for the tools you want to use.


For many tools (especially hand tools) I’d recommend using the internet and youtube for explanations but these two in particularly are treated very differently in the UK from the USA, so there is a lot of unhelpful advice out there.

Based on your description of what you want to do, you should find the tool pages describe exactly how to do that.

#3

For very accurate cutting of small pieces, consider the CNC, which can also level off as well and is repeatable, like the laser. If you’re not yet inducted, I’d be happy to supervise and help with that, either on desktop CNC or big CNC. I’d be very hesitant about cutting small pieces on the tablesaw or chopsaw - best to get guidance from a woodtech about that. Maybe the bandsaw?

It may be worth asking Trotec about cutting Sapele using the laser (??)

#4

Thanks Dan for the CnC! The issue is the resin in the wood for the laser; all tropical red woods are full of resin so they don’t rot in their native habitat.

Id like to press on with the table saw side of things for now as I have a couple projects that require it, but one thing at a time, dealing with the Sapele being the most pressing one :slight_smile:

#5

If inductions on those tools are being fazed out, we really need a buddy system in place where those who are inducted on those tools can help others safely use them. Reading is one thing but you cant ask the right questions from a tools page and nor can it tell you if you dint understand something :wink:

Hence the request for help :smiley:

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#6

Sorry I don’t think I mentioned the tool pages in our convo earlier, but please do give those a read to understand the operation and safety principals of the machines, it’s hugely important to understand those before flipping an on switch. Many of the risks faced on the machine are non-obvious.

On inductions for the table saw, planer, spindle moulders, etc. here are my thoughts on what to work towards for a more functional induction system:

  • Some (most) members need training (rather than just pointing out safety considerations) to safely operate these machines
  • It’s simply not feasible for a couple hundred members to rely on 2-3 members to offer training on these machines - this is a popular space
  • “training” is not one size fits all - can take 15 minutes if they’re familiar with shop equipment and just haven’t used our models, but can take multiple hours and require lots of help for others with less experience to get to a necessary level of competence for safe operation
  • the documentation for a framework on safe operation is on the tool pages
  • we have a lot of members who know how to use these machines safely

this has me thinking that the right way to do inductions for these machines is for it to consist of:

  1. Self guided education on the tools. This moves much of the onus for training into the inductee. A gap I see here is videos - we should have some (curated) YouTube videos that cover diverse aspects of operation available in the tool pages. The tool pages themselves need to be more obvious too. Now that I’m done with my table I’ll be focusing on this.
  2. Shadowing, or using the tool under very close supervision and instruction from of an experienced member. This should not happen before reading through and acknowledging the tool page and risk assessment. A gap I see here is a mechanism to identify which members to reach out to. I think this could just be discourse groups that match the tool control lists.
  3. When comfortable with the safe operation of the tools, demonstrate knowledge of the tool to an inductor or wood tech and get added to the tool control list.
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#7

@mbg - these are very interesting thoughts. There’s a lot to this. I was particularly struck by this:

What comes to mind is looking at this from an epidemiological perspective, but in terms of the spread/transfer of acceptable skill and proficiency / knowledge rather than spread of disease i.e. ‘transmission dynamics’. If proficiency can only be gained by extended personal contact with one of 2-3 people, then the spread will be limited. By contrast, spread would be very quick if e.g. everyone who was proficient passed that on to 2 or more on the wait list.

Even someone with very little experience could potentially train someone in the basics, but they would need to have suitable training materials. If there is a full checklist and workflow and presentation (like @Brendon_Hatcher has done for the laser) , then proper training to a basic ‘beginner level’ could feasibly be given even by less experienced members. As you note:

Someone with zero experience could become trained in basics and familiar with a piece of equipment with e.g. reading the tool pages and materials and 40-60 mins skill sharing with an inducted member, and after some shadowing, they might then only need 15 mins for ‘signing off’ by a tech.

The key thing here is that the base of potential trainers could be widened by having suitable materials and checklists. Those help ensure things are properly covered. Without that, then much more experienced members are needed who have that knowledge firmly embedded in muscle memory. The spread is then less, though still higher than if limited to only 2-3 who can train. For less experienced users, training others also helps one becomes more familiar and more proficient with the equipment. The higher the proportion of inducted users who can and do transmit proficiency to uninducted members, the faster the spread. It’s ‘R-0’ (reproduction number).

#8

Problem is that spread will be quick but the knowledge will become diluted and distorted over time, like Chinese whispers or mutating viruses.

That is probably fine with some tools and disciplines in the workshop, maybe you could get away with that with the ultimaker. But the ultimaker doesn’t have the capacity to sever limbs nor project sharp pieces of wood back at the user.

I am totally opposed to having a “passed knowledge “ system for the table saw.

In fact I have always pushed for a system where anyone inducted on the table saw who hasn’t used it in the past 3 months loses access until they have a refresher from a @woodtechs

#9

Sorry I did not have time today to give you my full attention.

Been thinking about your project and ways to do it.

Have a discussion with me or one of the woodtechs next time they are in.
The main problem is they are quite small pieces you are going to be cutting.

First procedure would be to cut long lengths to match the most common size thickness.
Then set up the sliding table where these long strips will be placed. With a depth stop on the fence on the other side of the blade but well in front of the blade so the piece being cut is not trapped between the blade and the fence.

This may sound confusing but the @woodtechs should know what I mean.

What did you need the planer for?

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#10

Yes exactly, well put. That’s why there would need to be suitable training materials to ensure consistency - following a crib sheet as it were. Without that, there wouldn’t be a proper transmission, so would then need to rely on very experienced members or the 2-3 woodtechs. Even with materials and crib sheets etc., there should also be the final sign-off by a tech or highly experienced highly proficient member. That also would provide a quality control, nipping such mutation in the bud.

And, to be clear, I’m NOT suggesting someone should be treated as fully inducted and able to use the tablesaw or similar equipment without either sign off by a tech or under supervision of a suitably experienced member that techs have full confidence in. Before someone can be ready to start to use it under supervision, there is a lot to do in getting familiar with it and learn the bare basics. A ‘novice’ might then graduate to become a ‘learner’ and could start to use it under suitable supervision. Once suitably proficient, their proficiency could then be checked by techs and signed off if suitable.

Yes, that suggestion of loss of access like that sounds sensible to me. Similarly aviation licenses lapse and one has to recertify e.g. solo license for gliding lapses if not flown solo for 12 months. That’s basic to ensure safety with a highly hazardous activity. Fatalities would be a lot higher otherwise.

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#11

Open comment: If these are being faded out then then how and at what point are people who have been waiting to use various items in the workshop going to get access?

I’m a carpenter as a job and use the space to make personal projects and feel a little bad that I have to wade in other other peoples time and good nature to use the equipment. Been fine up and until now and I understand that these are really dangerous tools in unexperienced hands…

Think this buddy idea is a great one and am wondering how one can go about getting signed off for using a new item in the shop?

Thanks,
Rory

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#12

It’s less that they’re being phased out, and more that they haven’t really been running in the first place, though people have been added to the tool lists. Most of the people who’ve been inducted recently it’s been either 1) because they’ve been working on projects, read through the tool page, did self learning, and used the tool under the watchful eye of a wood tech (this is how I got mine), or 2) they’ve had extensive (usually professional) experience, just needed to be oriented on our particular shop, and were signed off. I want to work towards something that is safe, functional, has a documented process, and is more fair and transparent. As mentioned above, I believe this involves leveraging the talent we have in the membership, and defining a clear policy. I need to get with the other woodtechs, but I’ll commit now that this is my project for next week

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#13

Thanks for your response here and sharing how you got signed off. I understand that each workshop has is’t own set up with their individual quirks and that this takes time etc I’ve been supervised using the machines required for milling wood or what ever else I have been working off etc so hopefully I’ll get signed off when appropriate. Just wish i’d known this sooner…