Inclusion and diversity at Makerspace

The directors take inclusion very seriously. We invest a lot of time behind the scenes into issues raised by members. That doesn’t mean there are a lot of members with issues (that we know about), in fact it’s a tiny percentage. But we put the time and energy in because we believe it’s important.

To add a note to that: I looked into the incident you messaged me about, and alluded to in an earlier post, and I’m satisfied that it was resolved to the satisfaction of the member involved. But thanks for flagging it.

A very valid issue is that people like you, me, and the other directors are from a narrow demographic and therefore might not seem approachable by members from other groups. That is a hugely useful thought to emerge from this discussion both here and at the members’ meering. I think anonymous feedback is one great option, I think having a female point of contact is another. And of course we can go further and wider as needed.

Another great point at the meeting is that we need specifics to be able to act. If people don’t give us specific feedback we can do nothing. Tackling a idea like the space seeming like ‘an old boys club’, is hard because it’s not definable, nor something there seems to be any general agreement on. In this case if 1% said the space felt like an old boy’s club, and the rest didn’t, then we would really have to go with the 99%.

You clearly see a need for radical change, I see a need to keep improving. We’re both after the same goals.

I’m not going to react to the 99/1 thing but I think people need to think closely about why that statement is problematic.

This is a complicated issue and a lot of the folks here, and I am not talking just about the directors, or the men, but generally a lot of members here are here because of their comfort with the space as it is.

There’s a number of things going on: You say you guys work loads behind the scenes to examine issues raised and that’s great but this isn’t the only aspect to the issue, I think it’s very difficult to get your head around the reality that Makerspace isn’t as safe a place for some people as others.

When I think about it like this I guess what I am saying is that I am used to art/design/education type environments in work and freelance, these are places that it’s incredibly safe, comfortable and natural for you to be yourself, and not just that the community might be tolerant of someone with a different characteristic to them, but would be comfortable and natural about it.

It’s very hard to explain and my dyslexia and written word don’t express it very well.

I think I’m getting a better understanding of where you’re coming from.

With the 99% thing: I probably should have picked something that wasn’t a theme in this thread. Especially as we’re still talking to people about the old boy’s club thing.

Hypothetical scenario:

A member comes and says “I can’t work in the space because of the colour temperature of the lighting”. We think " oh, we hadn’t thought that could be a problem". We ask around and no one else has difficulty with it , then we probably can’t change the lighting just for one person, the 1%… Though it’s also worth investigating if the problem isn’t actually something different. So it’s not about ignoring them, however we do need to get the best fit for the most amount of members.

My 2p’s worth…
I’ve spent a great deal of my working life around engineering and prototyping sort of environments and they do, almost by default, attract a certain group of people. SLMS is the most inclusive and welcoming bunch of people I’ve had the pleasure of working with, for this you should be very proud as this is most obviously by design and Not by accident.

That said, should we rest on our laurels and stop pushing an inclusive agenda forward, no chance.
While the space does need to serve it members, SLMS is a reflection of its members and the more diverse the better. It would be a very boring place if we all agreed on everything and had identical backgrounds etc…

Courty

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My friend, don’t you worry… that is NEVER going to happen… Hahahahha

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I agree with your example but I think the issue is that it is a somewhat hyperbolic example, in that unless there was clear guidance that this person had a disability and was a recognised aid to them that didn’t harm others it would be a reasonable adjustment, however otherwise thats personal choice and that and cost make it an unreasonable expectation.

However mostly I am talking about social adjustments, there are physical things we can do and have done, to aid inclusivity, but there are also things we can do to help people socially, thats where the old boys club problem comes in.

Thats what this is really about, I am sure some of the social adjustments would result in physical outcomes like tidiness / cleanliness which was brought up at the meeting, or in conversation with someone shortly after, but that’s still a behavioural attitude of our community and the result in that example would affect a group of individuals.

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I think it is unrealistic to expect the demographic of slms to match the demographic of our catchment area, London or for that matter the uk.

Before we get into the "do we match the demographic"
We need to define the demographic!
So creatives, tinkerers,makers, designers, artists, inventors, diyers, hobbyists, and more. This is the demographic we need to judge ourselves on. What are the percentages for people that are interested in the above and want somewhere to do it.

If we were a boxing club would we be trying to match our members profile with a general demographic. No I don’t think so.
But there are exceptions such as our gold medalist nicola Adams. And many females that realise that boxing is one of the best, most rigorous overall forms of exersise excersise work out around.
But I don’t think they would expect a 50/50 male/female split.

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I thought an old boys club is full of people who went to public school together scratching each other’s backs? This term keeps being used to refer to SLMS. Maybe that’s not how it’s meant but I think we can be certain that we’re a long way off from the Bullingdon Club. I doubt any of them would know a torx from a pozidrive…maybe we should be trying to recruit from these circles too. Didn’t Boris turn down our invitation?

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You are talking nonsense… no need to know that stuff… anyone at slms know that the appropriate tool to drive a screw is a freshly sharped chisel!!

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I have a suggestion. @events Maybe we could do something for ‘time to talk’ on 2nd Feb? It’s a while away but it gives us plenty of time to plan. http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/about-us/about-our-campaign/time-to-talk
Mental health issues can effect anyone- no matter class, gender, ethnicity, age etc so it seems to fit in with inclusion and diversity. It’s a Thursday so I think maybe we could do something in the evening involving high use of the kettle and biscuits and a craft activity? Is Thursday electronics night? @electrotechs could this run together? And maybe the art group could be involved. But I’ve forgotten who is heading that up? Anyway I am happy to plan this (along with anyone else who wants to get involved) in the new year if everyone agrees it’s a good thing. Mainly I see it as an excuse for me to eat more biscuits.

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Ok, jokes apart, here my opinion.
First I want to say that in my opinion we do not have a problem of inclusion in south London makerspace
Of course this is just my opinion.
From the very first day I felt absolutely welcome (thank you @Dermot ) and never, not even for a minute I felt otherwise.
I understand that my opinion doesn’t have much value, I’m male and white, but for my small experience I can tell that being a non UK resident and a not English speaking can be quite hard.
I have been a member for almost 2 years now and in all this time never, not only once, I was put in the position of being ashamed of my origin or of my poor English (even after brexit).

That being said I think that we MUST keep working on this, but without banging our heads on a wall, we are doing great!

In every community, real or virtual, in a working place or in a sport club, is practically impossible to include EVERYONE in the same way! Will always be some factor of difference and we need to face and accept that! What we have to do is to keep that to a minimum, and we need to avoid discrimination based on sex, gender and race… well basically we need to avoid racism first of all!

About the “men cave” or “old boys club” feeling I want to say one thing…
We set up a place PACKED with big heavy and powerful machines with rotating blades that can cut your hand off!! We have to accept a bit of “man cave feeling”!
In practice I suggest to work on this in a sensible way, with the help of an anonymous form of feedback! Nobody that I know of is racist among us and sometimes some jokes or behaviour can make someone uncomfortable, that’s why I think that an anonymous feedback is the way forward… we cn have the appropriate feedback and work on it!!

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I’d be very supportive of us doing this.

I’ll start another thread.

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Sorry but you seem to be saying it’s unrealistic without qualifying why.

Stefano, that statement isn’t fair, no one said the opinion of white men isn’t important, quite the opposite in fact, however you have to understand that you are in a position of privilege and in the majority and that other people have different perspectives (for want of a better word).

It is fantastic that a lot of the people here feel this place is working for them, however it isn’t working as well as it could be for everyone and those people need the rest of the community to have a think about how we can make it more comfortable for them.

This is where you and any other member who feels its working for them can pause how they feel for a moment and try to think about how others might feel to think about how our behaviours and processes make them feel, to listen to our minority members, to read up about the issues of minorities in maker culture and society in general, and to think about how each of our behaviours can be modified, or how the process could be altered to make more people feel welcome.

The issue here isn’t saying those that are comfortable here are not important, but about asking what about the other people?

You’ve stated English as a second language is a barrier to your engagement in the space, and unfortunately that is very difficult to get around in an English speaking country, but and a lot of the baggage people bring with them is often difficult to fix but we can be accommodating to them, and I hope you’ve found that if you ask what something means that members are kind enough to explain without making you feel stupid, and that people don’t make you feel uncomfortable when you speak your native language to someone else.

However if you take a less obvious difference, and realise how not being able to speak your native language can make you feel, perhaps frustrated or unable to express what you mean, perhaps making it difficult to keep up with conversations, imagine that instead that was your age, or ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation, and that you brought issues specific to those perspective, but people didn’t know how to accommodate your differences or simply were unaware.

The point is there are some obvious things wrong in our community which I think we can change if we accept how it makes others feel and mutually police each other in a safe way, however there are many less obvious things because we just take it for granted.

This is what I am trying to explain is that while you’ve overcome your language barrier and made a home in the space, there are other people who come along with issues that affect them in more serious ways that might stop them joining.

It’s very difficult to understand because everyone is different, we’ve got female members who are quite happy in the space, so what’s different between them and the 30% of female members missing? Everyone is an individual and while you can categorise / label people into broad groups you can’t say that because one female member feels okay all female members do, you have to take the perspectives of those members that left or never joined or aren’t active and thats pretty hard to do, so instead you have to rely on research.

I’m gonna stop here because this is already another Tommel Epic, and I am sorry I am not good at explaining things which probably doesn’t help that English is a 2nd language for you.

If you read the next paragraph in that post you will see how I have qualified it.

Sometimes quoting parts of a post out of context or without the rest of the post can convey a completely different meaning.
I am sure this is unintentional on your part.
My post has the first statement you quoted. Followed by qualification followed by an example.
So I would appreciate if you Read the whole post and take it in the context it was intended.

I too have trouble conveying exactly what I mean in writing. So forgive if I have not explained this too well

I think we’re heading towards a circular argument now. Ild suggest closing the thread.

It’s clear people have realitive agreement that we should take this seriously, but perhaps disagree on how large or if the issue is currently a problem.

Either way I don’t think discussing it further like this will really get us any where.

I think let’s close the thread.

And start to come up with real world ideas that could be used in these situations. Ways to make actual issues heard. And work on ways to resolve them. This may include deciding on who should be receiving the annoyinius feedback. Maybe the directors aren’t the best people to deal with this in the first instance. Setting up a formal process that deals with these issues will leave us in a good place.

Then wait and see what comes out of the woodwork.
Until then I think we’re just having an academic debate that may just get more heated than helpful.

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I think this, and the discussion we had at the members’ meeting is proving very productive.

It’s heartening to hear people’s positive experiences.

Beth’s suggestion has only appeared today, so not sure we’re ready to close this.

But you do raise an interesting question: ‘when should a thread be closed’. I don’t know the answer (but we can’t discuss that here- it’s off topic).

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That’s also true😊

Let’s get some ideas in place though while we’re talking about this stuff.

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I agree there is an element of circular argument but thats mainly because new people are getting involved as Dermot said and asking questions.

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Think new people are adding new stuff.
Ild welcome opinions of people we haven’t heard from yet.
I thought people replying over and over was the circular bit.
Could be wrong.

(This post is very circular)

I was really trying to say maybe we should look at finding some solutions we could implement.